Transcripts of telephone conversations between the SeeRed author and Jo Clarke (Environment Agency, Planning Liaison officer), Rod Harrington (East Devon District Council (EDDC), Senior planning officer) and Mrs Pamela Meadows (Environment Agency, Enforcement Officer) on the subject of hundreds of tons of rubble and soil having been dumped onto land in the flood plain of the river Sid.

The land in question used to be a low lying garden. It formed part of a 'relief channel' for flood water when this overtopped the banks north of the Packhorse Bridge, Sidford. Now that the channel has been considerably narrowed, water may more readily overtop the banks further north - increasing the risk of flooding of domestic properties in Hamilton Close. The point referred to about storage capacity is now recognised to be largely academic.

The original tape recordings may be placed on the internet in due course.

Telephone conversation with Jo Clarke, Environment Agency, Exeter. Tuesday, 28 February 2006.

I sent you an email a couple of days ago.

You did, that's right.

Could you tell me who's dealing with this? Is it being looked into?

Yes, we are looking into it, as I said in my response to you, Mr Wozniak, what I am doing is waiting now for comments to come back from somebody in our Environmental Management Dept. because there are various aspects from our point of view as to whether we have any ... whether we would have given any permission as you put... to such works, and so I am waiting for comments in relation to any need there may have been for, in relation to, waste management licensing or exemptions, if you are saying they are bringing builders rubble in, there may be -

That's what they - I made it quite clear - this land used to be very low, very low lying -

Yes

It was part of the old garden that we discussed a couple of years ago

You did, that's right.

Now what has happened during the buildings works - they have put some new buildings up - a whole mass of bricks and builders' rubble and stuff was tipped on this land - a huge pile - and I assumed they were just going to take it away at some stage - I was away from home and the next time I looked at exactly what was going on, here we have this completed car park all raised up at a substantially higher level - we are talking about some hundreds of tons I would think -

Umm...

of material, now there are two aspects, one is the dumping of waste near a river which actually may not matter because it is inert, but, there are rules about this sort of thing I guess,

Well, there are - that is why I am looking to one of our Environment Management Officers to see...

the other thing is - are allowed in any case, and would you need consent to do this on a flood plain at a pretty critical point

Well, if they have done the works within the 7 metres of the watercourse then that may be an enforcement issue for us. Yes, I have spoken to Tom Welling because I know you sent the email to him as well as to me, and Tom tells me he has not given consent to any works such as you are suggesting within the area that would need to be consented... so he is saying to me - he has said to me - if the works are being undergone (or have undergone!) - in very close proximity to the watercourse, it is likely that our consents - under the...land drainage consents - will be required from that aspect - but if they are also importing waste materials

I would imagine that they did get.... some extra soil etc in, because I can't imagine they got that volume just from knocking down the old buildings

No, as you can imagine, with lots of different developments, people do import material, and they are perfectly within their rights to do that, he may not necessarily need an exemption or a waste management licence ...but I am checking that out - because obviously we need to make sure that there isn't a ....

Well. somebody from your point of view, needs to just come and just look at this

That's our next stage - I need to first of all to run it past my technical colleagues first of all, Mr Wozniak to see what their thoughts are on the matter and then what we will do - if you are telling me that the works have been undertaken in close proximity to the river,

Well, as you can see from the photographs, it is basically banked right up to the flood defences

Right, OK,

those extra revetments - or whatever you call them - that were put in - were a little higher than in the first place, but it was basically just repairing a wall that had gone into a bit of disuse, but originally the ground level of all of that garden was substantially below that - and when the river did used to flood that was effectively quite a large storage capacity which could be used by the river and - to some extent - to ameliorate the rush of water onto the main road.

Yes. Like I said, we are looking into it, and what I will do, as soon as I had comments back from my technical colleagues, then we can decide if we do need to come out on site and have a look, and ... um, to take action if necessary if there is enforcement action needing ...

Well, you see this man has run against the rules just about everything he has done on that site - trees for example - and I am not going to let it rest - and if you are going to say - oh well, just because it has been done, we are just going to let it lie,

Well, I'm not saying we will necessarily,

The point is that at the moment it is just about ready for the final tarmacadam - so if he is going to have to dig some of it up then he might as well be told now rather than when he puts the tarmac on.

Well, absolutely, absolutely, all I can say is that I'm waiting for my technical colleagues...

There is also a very large drain - what looks like a road drain has been put in right at the far corner by the river - now I don't know where that goes, - now if he has put it into one of the drain (sewers) that used to run under that property, or if he has put it into a soakaway, or what he has done with it, I don't know,

OK,,,, if .,, if he is,, any development that he is doing will need to be in accordance with his planning permission, so if there is an issue regarding what he is doing with his drainage then that really should be taken up with the local planning authority, to ensure that whatever he is doing is in accordance with what he's got permission to do, and again, with any raising of land, that is another aspect to this.

I'll send this to EDDC and ask for their comments,

You may wish to, because, obviously, we give comments and give advice to the local planning authority as you know,

There are some issues that a friend of mine raised at Sidbury with Pamela Meadows, I'm not sure if you know her,

I do, yes,

She was very helpful apparently, whereas the EDDC people virtually washed their hands of it - they are only fairly minor issues compared to this - here we talking about a substantial encroachment into what I regard as the flood plain, and a quite important part of the flood plain,

Yes, yes, ...  We can check that out, that is not a problem, I don't want to,, I'm waiting to hear back from one person

Well, so long as things are actually happening

Well, absolutely, I'll hear back from Andrew and I'll just waiting to hear back from his colleague who is the expert if you like on the waste side, as soon as I get some developments we'll be able to let you know,,, What I would say in the meantime is do have a word with EDDC as to what they have planning permission to do, it may show on their approved plans, some raising of land, and again, it will have a bearing on whether they want to take enforcement action

If it was raising land within the 7 metres of the bank you should have been informed about it?

Absolutely, yes, yes, we should have been, that's right, and that's what we will be able to check out, as soon as I've got something back on the waste side, we'll be able to pass that onto our enforcement colleagues,

OK, thank you.

Phone call with Mr Steer-Kemp, EDDC Planning Enforcement Officer,

I sent you a couple of emails recently, the first one at least a week ago regarding Hamilton Garage...

I've seen an email but there's nothing on it at all, it's completely blank, no attachments, completely blank, haven't got a clue what it's all about!!

Well, I'll send them through again...

I've had a couple actually, I think you've sent a couple, and I know I did speak to Rod Harrington - or he came in to to see me - and he knows about and is dealing with an issue out at Hamilton Garage with the Environment Agency, and if you're dealing with I shan't worry too much -- because the email I had literally didn't say anything - it was just a blank ...

You had exactly the same one that Rod Harrington had...

For some reason mine was completely blank! I know that I'd spoken to him -- or he came in to speak to me, and asked if I had had an email. I said I'd had a blank one and he said it was probably the same one, but certainly when I had spoken to Rod Harrington - because he has dealt with it over there - I know he had been in contact with the Environment Agency - but I don't know what the result of that was - I'll just see if he's there a minute, .......he dealt with the planning application -

Yes, I was questioning the plans - I know the plans were to put a car park there I think they got that through, but it is the question of raising the level of the land -

That's right, yes, Let me speak to him again,,,,he can either email or telephone can't he? I'll ask him to do that,, in the first instance,, so you're up to date with exactly what he is doing,,

Well, if this did get consent then it is something the Environment Agency, as I understand it, aren't happy about,,,

Oh, right,,

,,, because it has removed a huge amount of storage from the flood plain just at a crucial point on the river, it's within 7 metres of the river - all the drainage seems to go straight into the river, there are quite a few things wrong with it, and if indeed it did receive planning consent, then there are some questions to be asked as to why.

OK, well let me do that in the first instance, and I'll ask him to contact you.

Phone conversation with Rod Harrington, senior planning officer, EDDC, a few days later.....
.....

Leaving aside the fact that development on the flood plain was allowed anyway, what is the situation with raising this land?

Well, um, have you been through the file?

I haven't been through the file up in your office, no.

Well ... OK ...  that gives quite a clear picture of what has happened, I mean to be completely open with you, I had this application, it was allocated to me, and it involved extensions, basically to provide improved facilities - fairly modest extensions - now when I went to the site and had a look at the plans, it was quite evident that they wanted to extend their car park to the rear - now that car park I believe originally formed some of the garden -

It was the garden of Village End - it was all at a very low level..

I can remember a couple of years ago, when I dealt with the application for residential development, they had sort of incorporated that land within their commercial use anyway - it was hard-cored and that sort of thing - but anyway, I got in touch with their agent and I said "Look, this is a little bit misleading, you need to officially include the car park within the proposal for planning permission" so, um, we re-advertised the thing - and including the car parking as well and I re-consulted the Environment Agency, basically because I thought they would be very interested in it.

Yes.

So I re-consulted them and I've got the letters on the file, and because it was within the 7 metres of the watercourse where they said no new development should, may, take place I wanted to know what their comments were - whether they would knock it on the head completely or put conditions on or something - but anyway they wrote back to me - with the conditions they wanted on which were only about landscaping and a buffer zone 5 metres from the river which roughly they've done, so, I mean, we imposed the conditions that the Environment Agency required - now it was quite obvious to me that the extension to the car park was obviously going to be at the same level as the existing car park, you know, levels weren't an issue as a principle of extending that existing car park over that land. There is no condition that has been put on at the request of the Environment Agency with regard to height - or levels - so I mean, to be straight with you Stephen, we have granted planning permission, full stop!

Well, I find that amazing, given the sensitivity of that bit of the flood plain, that it was an important storage area for flood water, and now that has suddenly been removed - one of the reasons for not building houses in the flood plain is that it takes up flood volume and hence increases levels elsewhere, that is a general point, I mean you have explained roughly how this came about but I am incredulous that in fact what you are actually saying is that it is all basically above board as far as you are concerned?

Well, absolutely, they have planning permission.

And there was no restriction put on the height? Can they actually build up land like that in height without specific consent?

Well, they have got consent, I mean, um, when I looked at it on site, I obviously, and presumably the Environment Agency did as well, regarded it as an extension to the existing car park at that same height.... - and there was no doubt in my mind that that is what they wanted to do.

So I mean,... they have got permission, yes, there is no point in,  ... and why I latched onto this originally, is because, um, ... within 7 metres of the watercourse, there was the option the Environment Agency had of knocking it on the head completely - regardless of the details of levels, a few inches higher and this sort of thing, is it appropriate to put a car park there?? .......

.........change over tape ..........

We consulted the Environment Agency and that was it.

I'm quite incredulous that things like that can be allowed to happen with all the history on that site anyway - we started off with a garden which was at a very low level which was known to be flooded, then we have this chap buying it and dividing it off - and there are photographs of the fence that went across the middle - all at the same level - it was a very low piece of land - and then he brings in goodness knows how many hundreds of tons of hardcore or whatever, puts it on, and then the next time I look at it we have a car park that is about a metre higher than the original land and,, it seems from what you say that nobody raised an objection to it! I find it quite amazing given the fact that that was a principal escape route for water if you like, once it overtopped the banks - now it has only got a small amount of space to get through there so hence the flood risk to other properties will be increased.

Um ...... Have you had a word with the Environment Agency?

Oh yes, I've sent the things, and they seem to be a bit coy about responding at the moment, but I think it's quite appalling - I think somebody has slipped up in allowing that in the first place -

Umm....

It's a funny little site - that Hamilton Garage, I mean we had the application for housing development - which was appalling - that was chucked straight out - but what concerns me about England's Close is that business generally, I've not had huge objections from neighbours but the car parking down there is I would have thought, very troublesome for people living in that community down England's Close - enormous number of cars parked in the road - presumably when this comes into operation it will help that situation a little bit, but, um..?

Yes, but we are talking here about development in the flood plain and taking out a substantial piece of land at a very critical part of the flood plain, and seemingly everybody has just waved it through?

Yes....

Well, we haven't waved it though,, you know, I sat here as the development control officer and consulted the Environment Agency, I've been relatively careful about it, you know, I picked it up in the first place, inadvertently, because they hadn't actually applied for that (car park) and then re-consulted the Environment Agency, if they might have a view on it, and um...

Yes,, I'll look at the file at some stage, what you are saying is that basically, as far as you are concerned, it's fine?

Yes.

Telephone conversation with Pamela Meadows of the Exeter Environment Agency, on Thursday 23 March 2006. (01392) 316179

Miss Meadows?

Mrs Meadows, yes.

My name's Stephen Wozniak, I live in Sidford.

Oh, yes, yes, Mr Wozniak, yes...um..

I sent you some emails - or at least they were referred to you by Jo Clarke.

Yes they were, yes, she's passed them all on to me, yes.

What is happening about this?

I'm investigating it at the moment, I've asked questions of EDDC, and I've asked questions in a written format to the guy who did the works, so I'm awaiting replies at the moment, so my investigation is ongoing.

Now, I have spoken to Rod Harrington who I have spoken to several times before about this whole site which as you may know has had quite a few, shall we say dubious things done on it on the past few years..

Yes..

um, now he (Rod Harrington) told me that basically he held his hands up and said I referred this to the Environment Agency for comment - they came back and said "OK so long as you just plant a few shrubs and things around the edge" and that was basically it!! So they got consent for doing this.

Well...

But, I frankly don't think that anyone officially really appreciated that they were intending to...

Raise the levels!

and to landfill all of this.

That is exactly what I'm investigating because at no point - I have everything on file - I have all our planning stuff on file - I have records of that letter - that no mention of the raising of the levels and that is the issue I have put back to them to find out where they have exactly permitted that.

Rod Harrington said to me that when he looked at the site it was all covered with a load of bricks and hardcore which they had dumped there from knocking down some of the old buildings, he said to me - and I have a record of the phone conversation - he said to me that he had assumed at the time looking at it that that's what they would do, to raise the level up to the existing car park and he didn't rally take it any further and he then referred it to you (the EA) for comment and it seems to be that either he didn't raise the matter of

didn't mention raising of the levels,

or he thought it insignificant or it was so obvious they were going to do it that if you picked it up and if you objected then it was your job to do so, rather than his?

Yes ... I've also been in talks with our development control section who issued comments to the planning and again levels about the building were spoken about, but again, at no point were levels and infilling of the car park area, I've had ...

I mean, we're taking about hundreds of tons here!

We are, yes,  I can see that, yes we are. I went and took photos under what we call a Code B under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act and I was concerned enough to issue a Code B to take my photos, I mean, I am seriously investigating this and ..

Well, I am glad somebody is taking a bit of notice because this guy frankly has run pretty much roughshod over quite a few bits of planning in the past few years - arguably he shouldn't have got planning consent for any of the building works in the flood plain anyway, but it was a small extension to business premises -

Yes, I think that is what our development control team understood, ... when I came back and showed them - consent was issued for some sort of bankside works to the existing banks, -

Oh yes, that was Tom Walling, your colleague, who said that a long time ago to me that he - I've got an email from him - that he issued some OK for doing some work on the revetment to just make the stones better or put some bigger stones there but there was no mention of raising the levels.

No, no, again ...

Now this area of land is actually quite important as a transient storage capacity if you like, if the river suddenly (and it does suddenly sometimes) rush down, and this whole area which used to be the garden of that house on the end, which Mr Hooper bought - he now owns the whole row of them now, ... that garden used to flood quite extensively very suddenly and to some extent it did produce some amelioration of the flood water rushing onto the A3052 or indeed, overtopping the banks further up because it had this escape route -

Yes it would just go into there, yes I can see that,

Now in 1968(?), which is a long time before I came here, the flood water went into that area of land so rapidly it completely knocked down the brick wall onto the A3052

Yes!

and if you remove - my point is that if you remove that extensive what shall we call it - sort of safety valve -

Yes, capacity they call it, storage capacity

just upstream of the bridge, where it is actually most crucial, then the properties in say Hamilton Close are going to be more at risk because all of the flood water that used to come through there - or some of it - there is still a small bit of garden left - those houses will inevitably be more at risk.

I mean, Yes, my colleagues in development control, Steve Moore, said we have to find out what is going on with the levels here - there is no mention of levels - he said it was capacity - it has gone - his concerns are exactly the same as yours - so all I can do at the moment - all I can say - we are just awaiting on the replies - I sent those last week??

Well, I shall get quite annoyed about this because it seems to me that somebody, either in East Devon (and I know they are very overworked) or indeed in at the Environment Agency simply didn't do their job properly!

Which is what we are looking into - I've started to investigate it, I have ..

Yes I know,

logged on there, so I am duty bound to -- not just going to disappear into my in-tray or anything -

(discussion about a separate issue in neighbouring Sidbury)

....my concern here is frankly - I've been on the town council in Sidmouth and when I was on the council I raised matters when somebody out in Sidbury wanted to build a huge tennis court virtually on the flood plain and I said "Well, we have an academic issue here of greater run-off" - because this is one of the reasons that is given - I know this is small scale - but it is one of the reasons given in planning for not permitting huge housing estates in the flood plain - obviously they are at risk of flooding but it is the run-off - the very fast run-off

Yes, it is,

we have a policy of what we call flood sustainable urban drainage which is basically not tarmacading over every square inch and putting in ...

if you've looked at the photographs on my website and you've probably seen the size of......

Yes I have looked at your website..

you'll see that 6" drain pipe coming straight out from a drain in the corner of the car park,

I've raised that as well, I've raised that with our Environment Management team - I was on the point of chasing that up today - unfortunately at the moment, we normally have two enforcement officers.

Well, I'm just phoning you now because I'm just going way for a few days, and I'm wondering, ... if things are being left..

No, they are not being left, they are certainly not being left.

The impression I got from East Devon, Rod Harrington, was that "Oh well, given that he has been given the consent to do it there is nothing we can do anyway".

Umm, I've had two conflicting calls with Rod Harrington...

I know he's a very busy man...but as with all of planning in East Devon, there is so much (building) work going on around here, they hardly get time to look at the paperwork quite honestly, but it is not good enough if something like this is passed onto you, because the Environment Agency has been bleating in the past nationally about "planning departments don't take notice of our guidance" and here we have a case passed onto you for comment and you don't seem to comment in the appropriate way!

Well,,that may be an issue, but that is part of my investigation as well - it may be an issue. I'm investigating it.. and the drain concerns me and like you say... Environment Management did have a look before I went to have a look ..

Well, the other thing is that I believe I am correct in saying that there is an active used sewer that goes under that land ..

Yes, that has been flagged up for me as well...

Because I don't know the extent to which you are permitted to dump hundreds of tons of rubble on top of an existing sewer.

Yes that has been flagged up to me as well.

I think it is the same sewer that comes under my garden and it is the one that serves the Victoria Laundry  - it's the very old sewer in Sidford, the newer houses down Packhorse Close are connected to the new sewer but my house and the one next door are (for historical reasons) are on the old one, and I think that sewer goes straight under the road and I think it is one of the ones that goes under the garden of Village End - I couldn't swear to it -

So it could possibly go under this area...

One of the things that was raised when he (Mr Hooper) was intending or hoping to build some houses on that land, which was a truly appalling planning application...

Yes, I looked at that application was well!

One of the objections to that was a sewer pipe one of which was defunct and one of which was active, now that needs looking into because it may well be - and I know from my own property that you can't build within three metres or put soil on top or whatever, on top of an existing sewer.

Yes right, yes yes, I know

Because if you need access to it it would make it extremely difficult.

Well what I did on the day I went and photographed is that I stopped any - I said "no" - I had heard they were going to tarmac it - I said "don't do that and until I've fully investigated this you're not doing anything else" basically, so that is why nothing else has happened. So I am investigating but I haven't had any reply and if I don't get a reply in a couple more days I shall write a letter saying where is the reply to my other letter.

Well, I shall - I am not going to let it drop because as far as I am concerned, Sidmouth Town Council have not done their job because they should have picked up this type of thing, East Devon I don't think have done their job and there is a question as to whether your planning people have done their job when they actually looked at these plans.

Yes, well, like I said, I am investigating all of that and I have all of the paperwork in front of me, and I am aware of that ...

Frankly, if he gets away with all this, the I mean I shall raise Heaven and Earth not that it will do me much good  - but at least it will be on a permanent record that people should do their jobs properly!

Yes, but as I said I am doing the best I can but at the moment, like you said about East Devon - they are run off their feet - I am one of two enforcement officers for risk management and at the moment I am on my own. I'm a little bit up to my ears as well, no, the ball has started rolling, it's not going to - there may be some slight delay in the process, the ball is rolling and now I have sent letters out it is not just going to vanish into a black hole,

Right, OK.